Product knowledge versus real knowledge
on August 17th, 2007 at 12:09 amI was at a client site the other day… Wait a minute. I just realized how often I open posts with that line now. I feel like Snoopy: It was a dark and stormy night!
Anyway, I was visiting a client the other day (yea, that’s better 
), and I was accompanied by my sales guy and a sales guy from a vendor with which Accuvant partners. My sales guy had invited the partner on the call, and then let me know a couple of days ahead of time that this was going on and that I needed to be there because the vendor’s sales guy was not going to have an SE available from his company. I am fairly familiar with this particular partners products. I have used them a lot in the past. But during the meeting, the conversation turned specifically to a particular product line, and it just so happens that I am not as familiar with this product.
So long story short, I basically had to admit in the meeting that I did not know the product line very well and I would have to do some research. Now the customer had no issue with that at all, but I could tell that the partner was none to happy.
Now generally, I could not care less about what partners think of me. I have been in trouble before with vendors, and I will be in trouble again I am sure. But in this particular incident, I felt like I had not done enough prep before hand and had done a disservice to the partner.
Anyway, the meeting went forward and turned to more security-centric talk, such as where they should place IPS, etc. The sales guys got bored for a while because we got to whiteboarding a bit, but it turned out real well, and the customer ended up giving me some kudos because I pointed out some issues he had not considered. And several times during the technical talk I pointed out products that the vendor had that could help with certain problems. So me and my sales guy left feeling like the meeting went well, and I am pretty sure the customer felt the same. But I still am not sure what the vendor’s sales guy thought.
As a pre-sales engineer, I am expected to know product as well as have in depth security knowledge. Now I know which one I am better at (three guesses), but I realize the reality of these types of situations. But as a VAR pre-sales engineer, I am expected to know a BUNCH or products. It can be a little crazy at times.
So really this is just some thoughts on my blog about this. I don’t know that I have a specific point. But for some reason it just struck me to write about this.
Vet
I work at a competitor of Accuvant’s and as a VAR we have the exact same issue. VARs of our size represent several dozen vendors, and each of those vendors expect our SE’s and delivery engineers to be expert in every one of the vendor’s technology. And they expect every SE in every one of our offices to have this knowledge. A couple dozen vendors, and 2-3 products per vendor leads to a completely unrealistic expectation of what is feasible for the average VAR SE.
There is a huge perception gap between VARs and vendors. In vendor land, they eat, breath, and sleep their products every day. Vendor SE’s only have to know a handful of products and they work with these products on a consistent basis. In VAR world, the SE’s have to deal with multiple products from multiple vendors which are changing all the time. They are lucky to be an expert in a handful of these products, and it’s very challenging to keep this knowledge current.
We invest $10k’s of money training our SE’s on various products — it is a huge cost of business that is covered by slim margin (10-20%). Just because you get a 35% discount doesn’t you get margins that high — no one buys at list. In vendor world, the margins are far higher, which enables them to cover the cost of SE’s easier.
There was a response that you should have prepped on all products from that vendor before going into the meeting. How is that accomplished? You read their website, digest the marketing propganda, and hopefully can fake your way through a technical conversation? I see that fail time and time again.
I also applaud your honesty with the customer. That behavior is what customers need from VARS — honesty and objectivity. In VAR world you are really in it for the long term with every customer. In Vendor world, I know they care about the customer, but the relationship is far more transactional-based rather than relationship-based. I don’t mean this as a negative comment to vendors – it is just the way it works, and if I was at a vendor I would be operating in the same mode.
Michael – maybe I was looking to set you off
or maybe I was just frustrated myself by some of the VAR SEs we have had to deal with who are just not really up on their partners products.
Anyway, I know you try hard as you can do a good job.
speak to you soon
Alan,
I know the roles. This is why I have been trying to relax my attitude about the vendor / VAR relationship. You do what you do, and we do what we do, and I know I have to accept that and work within the constraints. Your comment is appropriate.
But your comment about not being to count on VAR SE’s was crap, and it set me off, plain and simple.
Michael
Micheal – Buck up son! I wasn’t kicking you when you were down. I think you need to remember that as a VAR it is your figging job to hand hold the customer, that is why you make margin over the cost of the vendor product. Vendor makes product, you are supposed to own the customer. they all make money.
a
Sam,
Thanks for the compliment, Sam. I appreciate it.
But honestly, I get how it works. I’ve seen it enough times. But what it comes down to is that customers get burned by vendors because of the vendor’s attitude that you mentioned. And when sales people get caught up in that, then they become a cog in that same machine, and it becomes real hard to see the difference between the two. I know I am probably being idealistic, and I have even learned lately to relax my attitude about it (maybe my blog hasn’t reflected that, but my job has). But this just set me off.
And maybe you are right about my comment not being fair about vendor SE’s. I was not trying to direct it at vendor SE’s since I obviously know a lot of those guys, and they are more often than not great people. I know they are doing their job in the way it is layed out. And I know those guys work their tails off. And I know they have helped me more than once.
But I am not going to sit here and let VAR SE’s get knocked around either. It is us who keeps the relationship with the customer so vendors don’t have to. It is NOT an easy job, and I won’t be made to look like I am some worthless screw up out here not willing to do my job. The vendor SE has the luxury of being steeped in his company’s technology all day and every day. I get to see that same technology every month if I am lucky. Yea, I can read a book and read a knowledge base, but it ain’t the same. Call me a whiner if you like.
So I think the most unfair comment made was from Alan. Again, I was ADMITTING I screwed up, and Alan kicked me while I was down. I’m a big boy. I can take a hit. But I’ll be damned if I am going to sit back and not hit back.
Michael
Those of us who know you, Michael, know you have integrity. There is a balance on both ends and I won’t open up a can of worms with Alan on the subject of channel strategy – he knows where I stand. What I wanted to address was your comment about sales guys not caring about the customer in 6 months from the sale. The bottom line is, if you are compensating your sales folks only on the sale (which most vendors do), then they will have that attitude – not that they are bad people, but because they run the risk of spending time on non-revenue generating activity (and not making their number, possibly losing their job). The way to do it is make sure they are comped on renewals/maintenance/additional services (at the very least) and possibly even venture into a bonus structure based on customer satisfaction. Wishful thinking, I know.
I also wanted to point out that the service provider (in this case, you) are not just earning a margin on product, but also the services (installation, training, ongoing maintenance, etc.) so the value to you is higher than just a product sale. So in other words, keeping the customer happy is your job and is also an opportunity for you to expand your business with that customer in other areas. So the comment on a vendor SE sitting on their ass waiting on a call somewhere else just isn’t fair.
Alan,
I can always count on you for blunt honesty. Remind me to punch you right before I hug you next time I see you.
And before I pull out the defensive attitude on you, I just saw the sales guy I was referring to about an hour ago, and he was totally fine with my performance. So that settles the nagging question I had.
So, NOW I will get defensive. As much as I appreciate the support of LV and Newby, I ADMITTED that I was not as prepared as I should have been in that meeting. The purpose of the post was not to get people to make me feel better. The purpose was to just get some thoughts down and kinda whine a little about all the products I am supposed to know. Though I got some supportive comments, I still felt like I let the guy down. So thanks for kicking me while I am down.
And when you say you can’t count on channel SE’s, I guess you can use me as case in point if you like. But when your SE is out in California or Colorado or wherever sitting on his ass waiting for the next call, I am the one keeping that customer happy by calling him to make sure things are cool, making sure he has all the support he needs, calling your SE to get him to kick your support team in the balls so they will actually answer the customer’s question, etc., etc. You guys have the luxury of making a sale and walking away. I have to stay behind and clean up your pile. So don’t tell me you can’t count on me.
And Alan, you know my issue with vendor sales people. Most care not a wit about the customer except for when they are directly in front of them. I have had that proved out time and again, and I had it proved out just last week once again. It drives me absolutely bonkers when a sales guy says that he doesn’t care what happens in 6 months when the customer has a problem, he just wants the sale to go through (that was the issue last week – long story, believe me).
So when a vendor says to me that I need to know his products inside and out, I say “OK, you need to know my customer inside and out.” That usually shuts ‘em up.
Your friend,
Michael
Michael – all of these guys can blow smoke up yours and make you feel good, that is fine. But let me tell you what I think. If you know you were going with the vendor and you were the only SE there, you should have a deep grasp of the products. Preparation is the key to a successful sale. Yes, you might have saved the sale and your face by falling back on your security knowledge, but as the lone engineer there, the vendor sales guy was counting on you. This is one of my problems in working with VARs. They do not know the products as well as your own SEs and so you can’t count on them, you need to do an 8 legged sales call (two sales guys, two SE’s). It is expensive but if you want to do it right, that is how it is.
Kudos on saying “could not care less!” That’s one of my weird pet peeves since most people say “could care less” when they don’t mean that!
You probably know that I’d give you a pat on the back for admitting you don’t know a product as well as maybe you think you should. The honesty has mileage, even if the partner sales guy had to be disappointed. He should have had his own SE there, or should have used it as a way to continue talk with the potential client. Blah blah…to me, a good salesperson wouldn’t have been disappointed, but that’s me and I’m not a vendor or SE or sales guy.
Since you’re an IT guy, that means you can troubleshoot my slow computer, too, right? And my son’s games on why they shut off randomly? And clean out the dust in my computer case from my 12 cats…
Hi Michael,
I really like this post because it reveals a lot about the relationship between vendors and resellers/distributors/integrators. I’ve been both sides of the fence, and first off, I’m not surprised you didn’t know every single product inside out, even WITH an enormous brain like yours…
The vendor was probably more scared of his own shortcomings than disappointed in you however. It shows your committment and conscientiousness that you were concerned. Don’t beat yourself up though.
When a sales guy thinks you can’t talk about product, he thinks the sale is slipping away, and knows he can’t save it on his own. However, what you also know better than most is that the customer, Numero Uno, is far more interested in addressing his security than spending his money. At the end of the day, what you have done is ensure repeat business for YOU, not necessarily the vendor, but you know what? That vendor chose to take you in, you represent YOUR business, not his.
To put it in technical terms, he needs to boot up and detect the java.